Dr. Joe Tatta: Welcome to the Healing Pain Summit. I am your host, Dr. Joe Tatta. It’s great to be here with you for season two or year two of the Healing Pain Summit if you’re returning from last year. Thank you for your support. Thank you for following on my Facebook page. I’m on my website, on my blog and in my newsletter. If you are new to the healing paints summit, welcome to our family. This is a place where a like-minded clinicians and patients come together to discuss natural strategies for solving chronic or persistent pain. New to the summit this year, I’ve created a special private Facebook group for all attendees of the summit. It’s called the Healing Pain support group. That’s a place where you can go in, you can share your story, you can share strategies that have worked for you and tools that have worked in your life towards solving chronic pain. In addition, make sure at the end of each video, I’ve five days of tremendous speakers, so make sure at the end of each video you help them out by sharing their video. You can share it on Facebook or you can show it on Twitter. You’ll see little icons at the bottom of each video to show them out on stick with the whole five days of unifying that each of you has something really, really special. Each expert has something that is really specific to you and your pain experience. If you’re a clinician, you’re going to find some great tidbits to bring back to your practice and tell budget, educate other clinicians about how we can solve chronic pain naturally up first on the healing pain summit is my good friend Jessica Drummond. She’s the founder and CEO of the integrative women’s health Institute and is passionate about caring for and empowering women who struggle with women and pelvic health conditions. She’s equally passionate about educating and supporting clinicians in confidently and safely using integrative tools to transform women’s and pelvic health care. She’s a physical therapist. She is a certified nutritionist and a woman’s health coach, so please help me welcome Jessica Drummond to the healing pain summit. Welcome to the Healing Pain Summit, Jessica Drummond. It’s great to have you back on for season two.
J. Drummond: Thanks for having me, Joe. I’m excited to be here.
Dr. Joe Tatta: So you’re a women’s health expert both in the realm of physical therapy, health coaching and nutrition. And you know, it’s, it’s pretty well known that women suffer more chronic pain than men. But I think it’s probably wise that we start out on a talk with just maybe talking about some of those stats. And is there a discrimination in the, you know, in our current healthcare system as far as women getting the treatment they need around, you know, pain care and prevention.
J. Drummond: You know, the data is really mixed, but it’s, it’s fairly clear that when men show up to the hospital or to a physician with, um, a complaint of pain, they are generally seen as more serious that they are, you know, that, that if a man is, is saying has pain, he must have pain. Otherwise he wouldn’t be saying that. Whereas with women, it’s actually not assumed that she’s really has pain. Like is it really pain or is it more of an emotional issue? And so for example, men, uh, physicians tend to order laboratory tests more when men say they have pain. But interestingly it’s the sex of the doctor and the gender of the doctor depends a little bit too. May all physicians tend to give male patients more pain medication, whereas the opposite is true. Female physicians tend to give female patients more pain medication.
J. Drummond: And of course you and I would argue whether that’s good or, or not. But you know, I think the, the bottom line issue when it comes to gender discrimination around pain is that it really depends on the perspective of the clinician. And that clinician can be a male or a female about whether or not they believe that a woman is presenting with an actual physical complaint. Which I think is also again, tricky cause you know we’ve talked about pain, brain science and the bios and psychosocial model of pain. So pain is not clearly physical or emotional in any given case. And so we have to, I think as a, you know, as healthcare professionals recognize that there is this bias that women, when they present with pain, it may or may not be real, whatever that means. And so the other thing that has the data from 1992 showed a really significant risk around women dying more from cardiovascular disease because they were presenting with symptoms of heart attacks that were not taken seriously because they were different from male symptoms of heart attack. However, that has changed a lot in the last 15 years. It’s more well known that women’s symptoms of cardiovascular disease are different and women with cardiovascular disease are taken more seriously. It is still the number one killer of women, not breast cancer, which is, you know, kind of a myth. And so I think those kinds of things are evolving now and so it’s not just, you know, so black and white as it was about 15 or 20 years ago.
Dr. Joe Tatta: Yeah, it’s a really interesting point to, to start on. I think it really kind of begs the question of where, where does this perception coming from? The women can maybe tolerate pain more or do though, are they over complaining about their pain? Um, you know, we know through research that the average physician only gets about four hours of pain science education throughout their entire residency, throughout their entire schooling, which is about anywhere from eight to 12 years. They really don’t learn too much about pain other than the right pill to prescribe, which is not always indicated. But where do we think this perception comes from that, you know, can lead women to, you know,
J. Drummond: well, you know, I think it’s really just a societal perspective how women should behave. You know, one of the other big reasons that women don’t get the treatment that they often need when they present, like for example, to an ER with acute pain. Uh, and there was a really good article on this in the Atlantic, uh, recently and I had a personally a really similar experience. So after the birth of my second daughter, I had three, um, ruptured ovarian cysts over the course of the next 18 months. And I had both my kids vaginally without pain medication. And I can tell you that was not nearly as painful as my ruptured ovarian cyst. So the second time I had it, the first time was very close after the birth and they thought maybe I had an appendicitis and you know, I was taken very seriously cause I had just had a baby like I think it was like four weeks before that.
J. Drummond: So they were afraid of ovarian, um, infections and things like that. The second time though, it was about a year out and similar to the woman in this article, it was really intense pain. Like I remember my husband driving me to the hospital and I was sitting in the front seat of the car and like I can barely breathe. Like I wasn’t sure I was going to make it. And you get there and they sort of just like stick you in a part of the ER. Like I don’t think she’s going to die. It’s, it’s first of all, it’s pelvic pain. So that’s really female, you know, like that’s not going to hurt anything. I have. And this is not something I talk about a lot because it’s not exactly my story, but there’s a very close family member of mine who is an opiate addict. So I am very hesitant to take morphine.
J. Drummond: But at this point I was like, give me whatever. And one of the things that I think is really interesting about the treatment of women with opiates is that they actually, the data shows that it’s more effective in women. And so when an opiate doesn’t touch the pain and you’re still sort of ignoring her, um, I think that’s really a big red flag. And the thing is, is that women are taught basically to, you know, especially when it’s women’s related pain, female pain, pelvic pain, menstrual related pain. But this is just part of life. Even I would say, you know, labor and delivery painted, which is just part of it. You should learn to suck it up, you know? And so it’s really not taken very seriously because then they, you know, we have this approach of not wanting to rock the boat, not wanting to take attention from someone who could need it more. You know, women being really polite and our family members not knowing when to really advocate in the husband and in the situation in this article was feeling really helpless and trying to advocate for his wife. But then he, then he starts to think, well maybe she is overreacting. So I think it’s really the societal perspective of, of when a women, a woman might be overreacting when it comes to pain and the resources being diverted to her when they could be saving the life of someone who has a real problem.
Dr. Joe Tatta: I see. And you know, I think it’s probably a good point now to jump into maybe talk about a couple of strategies that can help women out because obviously they may be going to an ER with pelvic pain as you mentioned, or they may have fibromyalgia where they’re seeing the fifth or 10th doctor, both of you. And I’ve seen that many times by the time they get to, you know, physical therapists, oftentimes they’ve seen multiple physicians. Um, but what are some of the strategies women can employ in their life, either them themselves or with their partners that will help them advocate for themselves better to get the relief that they need?
J. Drummond: Well, I think the first thing is that we have to, I think societaly and and women or men, but certainly women because a lot of times we’re most commonly have these chronic pain conditions. I read myalgia, chronic pelvic pain, IBS, chronic UTIs, things like this, chronic joint pain even. And so we have to recognize that we are really our own healers. That there’s not some, you know, quick answer out there. For most of these chronic pain conditions, it’s very multifactorial. And so we have to really understand that we have to create a, like an antiinflammatory anti-pain life. And actually, you know, I know you say this a lot because the truth is the underlying causes of these more chronic and they are big kinds of pain conditions really have to do with the digestive system, with the nervous system, the sensitivity of the nervous system, the hormonal system.
J. Drummond: Women are more of pain resistant or have less sensitivity to pain right before Avi lation when their testosterone is highest. But if her menstrual cycle is irregular or it’s not healthy or her hormones are out of balance, she won’t even have that, um, you know, kind of time of the month where pain is less for her. There are also times of the month where pain is greater. So we have to, I think, take into our own hands the goal of optimizing the function of all of these different systems that combine to create pain because there are those situations that you may have seen where you know, there is a structural alignment issue or maybe she has a food sensitivity or you know, um, oxalates are a problem. But most of the time it’s just not one thing like that. It’s really a, a lifestyle of health. And then the pain resolves as almost a side effect of that sort of like as weight can come off as almost a side effect of, of improving the health of all of those systems. So there’s not gonna be that one doctor who figures it out. It’s, it’s a matter of learning about all of these different,
Dr. Joe Tatta: yeah. So after the integrated women’s health Institute, which you’re the founder and the director of, um, I guess the question is what types of chronic pain syndromes you see the most and where do you typically start with some, cause you obviously have a background in physical therapy, you are a licensed physical therapist, you’re a certified nutritionist, um, and you’re a certified health coach. So you have a really kind of three very interesting modalities there to use. But where do you find most people kind of, you know, have an easy entry point, so to speak?
J. Drummond: Yeah, that’s a great question because as I, as I did say, you know, it is multifactorial, right? So it’s, it has to do with digestion, it has to do with structure and it has to do with, uh, psychosocial issues, feelings of safety and um, strength and resilience. I find it’s easiest to start, I think of everything as body, mind, medicine, right? So if you don’t feel well, there may have been an underlying trauma that’s a part of this story. There may be fear. Uh, that’s a part of the story. There may be a current bad relationship or a current, very stressful job that’s a part of this story. But I find that it’s challenging for anyone to deal with these big psychosocial issues when they are feeling very vulnerable in their body. So I actually like to start with the body now. I don’t do hands on physical therapy at this moment because as you know, I’m doing a hundred other things, but I very often I, so I do work with patients from a functional nutrition perspective and coaching, which is that more psychosocial piece.
J. Drummond: Um, sometimes we also work with psychotherapists if there was past trauma, but, um, the, the physical medicine of physical therapy we work with a lot because I would say the most common chronic pain condition that I work with is chronic pelvic pain. Uh, we also do see women that have general chronic joint pain, more like fibromyalgia, presenting situations. And usually that overlaps with chronic fatigue or hormonal imbalance. So from my perspective where I begin, if it’s chronic pelvic pain is we always collaborate with a, uh, a, a specialized pelvic floor physical therapist to make sure that all the structural issues are being dealt with. And then we, I essentially kind of take a hand in hand collaborative team approach with my patients to think through, okay, let’s walk through the body systems and see where we can optimize things that may not be working as well. And generally we start with digestion because if even the hormones or the nervous system has some issues, if, you know, my modality is nutrition, if we can’t get the, you know, Fido nutrients and the vitamin D and the, you know, Omega three fatty acids into the body because they’re not being well cause digestive function is not working well then you can’t, you know, get those great Omega three fats to the nervous system to have their anti-inflammatory effects. So we generally start with a combination of structural issues and um, digestion.
Dr. Joe Tatta: And regarding the nutrition part, what percent of your patients would you say need that supplementation to kind of help them along? You know their, their functional nutrition journey. I mean obviously food is going to be the first medicine when you’re talking about nutrition, but some people really need some key supplements.
J. Drummond: Absolutely. I think in most cases they need some supplementation. I think of supplements again cause I come from a physical medicine background, I was like crutches, you know you can’t heal without this. The digestive function working optimally. So the vast majority of our chronic pain clients tell me some digestive function support, supplements, things like digestive enzymes or possibly [inaudible] HCL, which is like a supportive supplement for stomach acid. Things like glutamine or collagen or collagen powders to support zinc, to support the intestinal lining because that’s where all of your nutrients are absorbed. Often probiotics or prebiotics, the fibers that feed the probiotic bacteria, gut bacterial issues are huge. So the kind of quote unquote, you know, systematic approach. I don’t really like to think in protocols because I really think that everyone’s somewhat unique, but the systematic approach really would be an elimination diet because I do see a lot of clients with pelvic pain having, you know, not a hundred food sensitivities.
J. Drummond: But definitely in the neighborhood of three to five very commonly, you know, things like sensitivities to dairy, gluten, soy, sugar. So elimination diet is sort of the food as medicine foundation. And we just published a case study with a woman with vulvodynia who, you know, her physician’s recommendation was essentially to do a, um, the Stevie elected me to cut out the volvar vestibule, um, which would not have been held in this case. And um, you know, other than that they had had prescribed a number of pain medications, injections, creams, none of that was very helpful. Physical therapy. It was helpful to a point, but there was like, you know, she kept plateauing or not really being able to kind of break through a sort of modest level, like a four out of 10 level of pain, 10 being the worst, highest level of pain. So we found through an elimination diet, which was a little challenging in this patient because she was a vegan.
J. Drummond: So I had to be, she, I had to take out all these protein sources, right? So we had to work with that, but it went very well. She kind of muscled through the first two weeks, which are always challenging with the elimination diet cause you have a lot of cravings. But she, after six months, mostly what we did was an elimination diet. And then we also, she had a number of tests looking for things like nutrient deficiencies and some of the really common ones she did present with vitamin D deficiency, magnesium deficiency, when you have lack of magnesium, your soft tissues. And my fascia can be very tense and tight, which is a lot of times what happens with vulvar and other pelvic pelvic pain. So you know, magnesium, vitamin D, Omega three fatty acids and Omega three and vitamin D are both anti-inflammatory and vitamin D is actually of anti-inflammatory hormone.
J. Drummond: So those are some of the supplements that are really common. And I do feel like most of the time, at least for the first six to 18 months, you know, being on supportive supplementation to build resilience. Also while you’re making dietary transitions because you know, it depends on where the patient started. You know, she was a pretty healthy vegan eating a lot of vegetables. But you know, I have plenty of patients who are eating kind of a standard American diet, which is mostly a lot of fried foods, very little vegetables, a lot of sugar or even hidden sugars. You know, people think they’re eating healthy, they’re eating like Turkey sandwiches for lunch and cereal for breakfast, but they’re missing a lot of nutrients and they’re often eating things that are rather inflammatory.
Dr. Joe Tatta: I think it’s great that you did a research study. Um, it’s really fascinating, but can you tell people like vulvodynia is for those people who might not know what it is? It’s probably important just to touch on that real briefly.
J. Drummond: Yeah, absolutely. Sorry. You know, I get stuck in the terms. Um, yeah, so vulvodynia is essentially pain in the valvar region. That’s all it means. Valvar Denny has pain, so it’s kind of like fibromyalgia, you know, we have all these terms that really just means pain in the area. Uh, so it does evolve with any, the term doesn’t really tell you because, um, it just basically says that you have pain in the vulva. So a lot of women that have all the Denny present with painful sex and they may also have things like bladder pain or endometriosis or even just IBS, constipation, things like that.
Dr. Joe Tatta: Yeah. And I think there are a lot of women out there who have vulvodynia who have gone to their physician, you know, probably their OB GYN who probably had been given let’s say an opioid or um, an SSRI, which is an antidepressant medication to help them out, which may be indicated. But there are other ways, other natural ways to solve that kind of pain.
J. Drummond: Right. And you know, I don’t disagree with using pain medications when they are indicated or even sometimes in as a crutch, you know. But if we don’t address the functioning of all of those systems, essentially the digestive system, the nervous system, the immune system, the endocrine system, especially when we’re talking about pelvic pain, hormones are always involved. You know, we can put estrogen cream on a vagina. That’s not, you know, we were catering enough and made that maybe part of the pain, but just kind of patching that doesn’t tell you, well why is that woman lacking an estrogen? And that’s an important thing to know, not just for her pelvic health but for her cardiovascular health, you know, her longterm risk for heart disease. So I think when we’re using medications, we always have to do it in combination with, with a lifestyle and nutrition and movement plan that optimizes the underlying health of the system. Ideally. And I know, I know physicians don’t have a lot of time for this, which is why we need this kind of medicine.
Dr. Joe Tatta: Yeah. Um, so, so the question would be if women have more chronic pain but they probably get treated, um, less for it or not as effectively, does that set them up for other health issues down the road in their life? Other chronic diseases?
J. Drummond: Yes. So there was a really interesting study that showed that essentially chronic knee, chronic back, chronic joint pain levels off at around age 60. And the underlying theory was that if you’re walking around with chronic joint pain and it’s not been well addressed or I would say bandaid it, you know, medicated covered up cause we the, this chronic joint pain is kind of like yellow light indicator. You know, if you’re like looking at your car, like the yellow light comes on, you want to be paying attention. And the reason they think that this joint pain increase levels off around age 60 is because people who had chronic joint pain for years actually died of something else around 60 like a heart, you know, cardiovascular disease or cancer and other, another underlying chronic inflammatory condition that will kill you. So, you know, I think when women are walking around with chronic pain for decades, these and other deadly inflammatory conditions, when they hit, you know, their sixties early seventies, which is unnecessary, um, when they have these yellow warning lights.
Dr. Joe Tatta: Hmm. Interesting. So can you give us a couple of strategies that a woman can implement in their life today to start to, let’s say, ease their pain of sorts to kind of turn their pain cycle around?
J. Drummond: Yes. I think one of the most helpful things we can do that’s not talked about very much is to really tune into the circadian rhythms and the menstrual rhythms for women. So if you’re premenopausal and you’re still cycling the, the menstrual cycle is another great kind of yellow light indicator that is functioning healthily or cycling approximately every 28 days. It’s not especially heavy. There’s a great little app that’s kind of a generic app about how you should feel during the month in general called the hormone horoscope app. You know, just know what your cycle is because if you know that and you can notice when it changes. And then same thing, women should be shutting off the blue light stuff, you know, the laptops and cell phones and televisions by about 8:00 PM going to sleep, getting up, having some actual outdoor exposure to light. You know, I sit and stare out a window, but I have to actually physically go outside so that I make myself go outside, you know, touch the earth, things like this because it sounds a little bit woo.
J. Drummond: But the truth is, is our stress hormone system is very influenced by circadian rhythms. And so is the nervous system and the nervous system when it is less sensitive and more resilient, you will experience less pain. So circadian rhythms is key. And then you know, even if you don’t know how to start eating a more antiinflammatory diet, add vegetables, you know, start there, start with them, cook, start with them blended if your digestive system isn’t running on all five cylinders, but simply adding vegetables and not only circadian rhythms but sleep, you know, the brain actually has a kind of a cleansing process that really only works well when we get good sleep, you know, on a regular basis. So those are kinds of things that often are thought of as simple, are not going to be that effective. But if you do them over time, you will really notice.
J. Drummond: And finally, I definitely think working with a nutrition professional to work through a systematic elimination diet can be extremely helpful. You know, I was a physical therapist, hands on manual therapy for about 12 years in the clinic before I started doing this. And I used to have hand pain every day. I used to go home with like these big ice packs, kinda wrapped around my hands and my arms and I stopped eating sugar, dairy. I think that’s it. Maybe gluten, but I don’t know if I’d even stopped that at the time. And my hand pain completely went away, you know? And I was still doing the same job, same amount of patients. So there are some very simple things that can set you up for a more resilient body that I think before we start taking any pain medication, even Advil, because Advil affects fertility, it’s increases risk for cardiovascular disease. You know what, how anti-inflammatory anti-pain is your day to day life.
Dr. Joe Tatta: So one of the things that we’re going to be talking about in this summit, this is the first interview we’re going to be talking a lot about the pain experience and how everyone’s pain experience is unique to them, their life, their surroundings, their thoughts, their beliefs, what they’ve been told. How important is it in the work you do? So work with patients to help them create a new narrative around let’s say their pain story.
J. Drummond: Extremely important. You, I think, you know what I mentioned this actually we were talking, I did a video on vulvodynia that same pelvic pain condition, uh, for patients just last week. And the kind of final recommendation was narrative medicine. And simply what that means is, you know, in my opinion is what is your pain telling you? And when you stop and get quiet, um, is, are you being overstressed? Are you doing some thing that you feel you have to do just because it’s an obligation? Do you have some underlying trauma that has not been addressed? Are you just not supported? You know, maybe things have changed in your life. You had a baby and you kind of lost your support network cause you’re not working anymore. So pain is one of those things that I think it’s sort of like other chronic, you know, hormonal imbalances or vague symptoms of fatigue that when we get quiet sometimes it does have a story for us.
J. Drummond: And if you just kind of get quiet and ask yourself what it, what pain, you know, what are you trying to tell me? Um, that there can be some learning from that experience that over the long term can be very valuable. And I also think that we have to trust our pain as women. And I think as a lot of people who are more sensitive in the world, there’s, you know, there is wisdom in that sensitivity and it’s not, it’s, it’s challenging sometimes to walk through the world where it feels much easier to medicate that sensitivity or try to quiet it because it is uncomfortable. You know, as I said, I, I know firsthand what it feels like to be in, not exactly firsthand but very close for soon what it feels like to be an opiate addict. And part of it is because there’s a real sensitivity and so you need support. You can’t try to muscle through that sensitivity because that sensitivity is real. We are living in a, in a world that’s challenging, but there is support available to you and there, there is a lot of wisdom in those sensations.
Dr. Joe Tatta: That’s a good point. And I think in our society, people look at pain as a weakness in a lot of different ways. I mean, I’ve even seen, you know, clinicians of various specialties after treating a patient for a while get stuck and not be able to progress them any further, say well they’re just overly sensitive or it must be something in their past or their life. But I really think it’s important that people understand that pain is a message is meant to be there because there is a positive reason for it to be there in your life. And usually it’s pointing you in some direction, but that’s the direction of nutrition, whether it’s structural and you see a physical therapist, whether, you know, you may have to, you know, see a pain psychologist or a psychologist and work on cognitive behavioral therapy. But I do think especially with women, there is that, um, aspect of well she’s weak or she’s not as strong as she could be.
J. Drummond: Yes. And I think the other important thing that you just said was sometimes when a clinician hits the upper limits of their understanding, they get frustrated. And sort of put it back on the patient. And I think as a patient, we need to recognize that that’s how our clinicians were trained, that they were trained, that they have to know all the answers or they’re not doing a good job so they feel inadequate. Whereas most of the time they’ve just hit the upper limits of their understanding. And every human has these upper limits. I mean, you might have only been practicing for five years or you just might have not learned something that you needed to know. So as a patient, when the practitioner kind of turns on you and does that, you know, try to have compassion for them because of some, to some degree it’s their training and say, okay, thank you. You’ve reached the upper limits of your understanding. I’m going to go find a different clinician, um, and move on. You know, you don’t have to physically say that stone if you don’t want to, but know that it’s not about you, it’s about them.
Dr. Joe Tatta: Yeah, I think it’s a really good point because you know, one is that the pain science information is moving so rapidly and it can be a challenge. You and I have had these captions discussions at conferences. It can be a challenge to really keep up with all the information. So we’re talking about the structural, you know, physical therapy part of it. We’re talking about the nutrition part of it, how that moves. A lot of us moving into genetics, um, the cognitive behavioral therapies are all starting to overlap almost in every part of medicine cause you really can’t treat the entire person that she started treating, you know, the brain.
J. Drummond: Yes.
Dr. Joe Tatta: So one of the things I love about your approach is that you integrate a lot of these into your practice and into your Institute. So tell us how we can learn more information about you.
J. Drummond: Well, I believe we have a, um, book for you. So nourishing yourself, relieve your pelvic pain, pelvic pain is your issue. And actually that book has a lot of wisdom in general about pain because as you said, you know, you can’t, wherever the pain is showing up for you, whatever body part, it’s all relating back to your brain and you know, all of these other systems. So that will help you either way. And then our Institute is at integrative women’s health institute.com.
Dr. Joe Tatta: Right. And now you have a coaching program as well as some other um, courses that are kind of smaller modules.
J. Drummond: We do. So we train health professionals actually, uh, through a number of training programs and we work virtually with clients all over the world.
Dr. Joe Tatta: Great. And then what do you have coming up in, uh, 2016? Right now we’re in, I’m audible, we’re taping this and August, but people will be watching in September. So what do you have coming up as the year continues?
J. Drummond: Well, we have a live event in December in New York city and I’m very excited about that. We have a number of speakers, including you. Joe is going to kick off the event for us. So this event focuses, it’s for professionals. So all kinds of health professionals are invited, health and wellness professionals. And the event is about women’s, uh, female athletes. So when we looking at female athlete wellness from all approaches and female athletes are another population that is really expected to kind of suck up the pain. And you’re even talking about this the other night when I was with a bunch of my daughter’s friend’s moms who were doing volleyball and dance and it’s like, Oh, your hip hurts. Go home and ice it and push through. You know, and that may be right, but that may not be right. Let’s, let’s take a little bit more critical look. So that event will be addressing that in December in New York.
Dr. Joe Tatta: Great. So I want to thank Jessica Drummond for being on the healing pain summit this year. She’s invited back from last year, but two totally different topics that I think are fascinating. You have an opportunity to help her out and make sure you share her videos. So down below on the page you’ll see two links, one for Facebook and one for Twitter. So make sure you click that, share it out with your friends and family so you can share the summit as well as Jessica’s interview and make sure you check out her website, the Integrated Women’s health Institute, as well as check out her free gift and we’ll see you on the next video on the Healing Pain Summit.